[MUSIC] >> Bonnie: HELLO.

I AM BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY", A WEEKLY DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL ISSUES AFFECTING WOMEN, FAMILY, CHILDREN, AND DIVERSE COMMUNITIES.

THIS WEEK WE HAVE THE PLEASURE OF SPEAKING WITH OFFER AYAAN HIRSI ALI WHO HAS WRITTEN SEVERAL BOOKS ABOUT IMMIGRATION, ISLAM AND WOMEN'S RIGHTS.

AND NOW SHE HAS A NEW BOOK OUT CALLED PREY: IMMIGRATION, ISLAM, AND THE EROSION OF WOMEN'S RIGHTS .

SO, WELCOME, AYAAN.

GREAT TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

WE HAVE INTERVIEWED FOR SEVERAL OF YOUR OTHER BOOKS.

ALWAYS AN IMPRESSIVE GUEST.

I'M GOING TO ASK YOU ABOUT WHY THE TITLE, BUT FIRST BEFORE WE GET TO THAT, FOR MEMBERS OF OUR AUDIENCE WHO DO NOT KNOW YOUR BACKGROUND, WHERE YOU COME FROM, WHAT YOU WENT THROUGH BECAUSE OF ISLAM AND HOW YOU ESCAPED TO THE WEST, SO TO SPEAK, PLEASE TELL YOUR BACKGROUND TO OUR AUDIENCE.

>> Ayaan Hirsi Ali: WELL, BONNIE, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR HAVING ME ON.

IT'S A GREAT PLEASURE TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

SO MY NAME IS AYAAN HIRSI ALI AND I WAS BORN IN MOGADISHU, SOMALIA IN 1969.

AND I LIVED THERE FOR ABOUT SEVEN OR EIGHT YEARS, WHEN MY FAMILY MOVED TO SAUDI ARABIA AND THEN WE MOVED TO ETHIOPIA AND THEN WE MOVED TO KENYA WHERE I LIVED FOR ABOUT 11 YEARS, AND THEN I ESCAPED MY FAMILY BECAUSE MY FATHER ARRANGED A MARRIAGE FOR ME WITH A MAN I DID NOT WANT TO BE MARRIED TO.

SO I LEFT.

WHEN I LEFT KENYA, I WENT TO GERMANY SO THAT A RELATIVE CUSTODY ARRANGEMENT IMMIGRATION PAPERWORK.

BUT INSTEAD OF STAYING THERE, I TOOK THE TRAIN IN GERMANY TO THE NETHERLANDS AND ASKED FOR ASYLUM, AND THAT WAS BACK IN 1992.

I WAS THERE FOR 14 YEARS AND AM VERY GRATEFUL TO THAT COUNTRY BECAUSE I FOUND A LOT OF OPPORTUNITIES TO IMPROVE MY POSITION AS AN INDIVIDUAL, AS A WOMAN, AND I FINALLY ENDED UP COMING TO THE UNITED STATES IN 2006 AND I HAVE BEEN HERE EVER SINCE.

>> Bonnie: AND YOU ALSO DID MANAGE TO ESCAPE AN ARRANGED MARRIAGE, BUT YOU DID NOT ESCAPE FGM AS A CHILD, CORRECT?

>> Ayaan Hirsi Ali: I DID NOT ESCAPE FGM BECAUSE, UNFORTUNATELY, BACK THEN THAT WAS THE NORM AND IT STILL IS THE CASE.

ACCORDING TO THE UNITED NATIONS WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION, THE RATE OF, YOU KNOW, CHILDREN'S -- LITTLE GIRLS BEING SUBJECTED TO FGM -- THAT IS FEMALE GENITAL MUTILATION -- IS 97 OR 98 PERCENT.

SO, UNFORTUNATELY, IT IS STILL THE NORM.

>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHT.

NOW, LET'S GET YEARBOOK, PREY: IMMIGRATION, ISLAM, AND THE EROSION OF WOMEN'S RIGHTS.

TELL ME HOW THOSE THINGS ARE RELATED, PLEASE.

>> Ayaan Hirsi Ali: THEY ARE RELATED BECAUSE THEY ARE ABOUT, I WOULD SAY THE MAJORITY OF IMMIGRANTS COMING INTO EUROPE COME FROM MUSLIM MAJORITY COUNTRIES.

AND OF THOSE IMMIGRANTS, AGAIN, A GREAT MAJORITY -- TWO THIRDS OF THEM OR EVEN OVER TWO THIRDS -- MEN, YOUNG MEN.

NOW, NOT ALL OF THESE YOUNG MEN ENGAGE IN SEXUAL MISCONDUCT AGAINST WOMEN OR ANY KIND OF VIOLENCE, BUT A NUMBER DOES AND THAT NUMBER IS LARGE ENOUGH TO CAUSE TROUBLE ON THE STREETS OF SEVERAL EUROPEAN COUNTRIES TO WOMEN.

SO I HAVE SPOKEN TO, AS YOU WILL SEE IN THE BOOK, I HAVE SPOKEN TO WOMEN, EUROPEAN WOMEN, BUT ALSO IMMIGRANT WOMEN.

BUT WHAT IS SPECIAL ABOUT THE EUROPEAN WOMEN IS THAT THEY WERE NOT USED TO THE PUBLIC SPACE BEING UNSAFE FOR THEM.

AND NOW THAT IS THE CASE IN MANY NEIGHBORHOODS, AND THE SOURCE OF THE INSECURITY OR UNSAFE , IT IS IMMIGRANT MEN WHO CAME AS ASYLUM-SEEKERS.

AND AS RECENTLY AS THE 2015, BUT SOME OF THEM ARE THE CHILDREN OF FIRST-GENERATION IMMIGRANTS, SO THEY ARE BORN AND RAISED THERE.

AND SO, WHEN IT COMES TO ATTITUDES TOWARDS WOMEN, WE ARE SEEING A REAL CONFLICT OF VALUES PLAYING ITSELF ON THE STREETS OF EUROPE.

AND SOMETIMES THAT IS JUSTIFIED IN THE NAME OF RELIGION -- ISLAM IN THIS CASE -- OR WHEN THE MUSLIM LEADERS ARE SPOKEN TO AND ASK, WHY ARE THESE MEN BEHAVING LIKE THIS AND WHAT CAN YOU DO TO STOP IT, THEY SAY, WELL, THE SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM IS FOR THE WOMEN TO COVER THEMSELVES AND STAY AT HOME AND STAY OUT OF THE WAY OF THESE YOUNG MEN.

>> Bonnie: SO THE WEST, AS YOU KNOW, HAS A PRETTY AWFUL HISTORY OF COLONIZING AND CRUELTY AND, OF COURSE, BEFORE THAT, SLAVERY OF PERSONS OF COLOR, AND PEOPLE IN THE WEST ARE VERY DELICATE ABOUT RELIGION.

YOU THINK THEY ARE WRONG IN BEING THAT WAY?

DO YOU THINK THEY ARE IN DENIAL ABOUT CHANGES THAT ARE TAKING PLACE IN THEIR OWN SOCIETIES?

>> Ayaan Hirsi Ali: I THINK WESTERN LEADERS AND WESTERN INTELLECTUALS ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

THEY ARE DOING THE RIGHT THING AND A GOOD THING TO REFLECT ON THEIR HISTORY, THE HISTORY OF SLAVERY, THE HISTORY OF COLONIALISM, THE HISTORY OF THE HOLOCAUST.

WESTERN CIVILIZATION HAS GENERATED A GREAT DEAL, I MUST SAY, TO REFLECT ON.

SOME OF IT IS REALLY BAD.

SLAVERY, COLONIZATION, ALL THAT WAS REALLY TRULY BAD AND IT'S FANTASTIC TO REFLECT ON THAT.

BUT WESTERN CIVILIZATION HAS ALSO DONE SOME REALLY VERY GOOD THINGS THAT WE ARE ALL BENEFITING FROM.

IN FACT, AS A CIVILIZATION, IT IS THE ONLY ONE THAT DOES ENGAGE IN A CRITICAL REFLECTION ON THE PAST, AND I APPLIED THAT TOO.

WHAT I AM AGAINST AND I THINK MANY OTHER WOMEN ARE IS FOR WESTERN LEADERS TO USE THE HISTORY AND THE NARRATIVE OF WHAT WENT WRONG IN THE PAST TO DO NOTHING ABOUT WHAT IS GOING RIGHT -- WRONG NOW OR TO JUSTIFY INCOMPETENCE AND LACK OF LEADERSHIP AROUND THE ISSUES OF WOMEN, ISLAM, AND UNMANAGED IMMIGRATION, BECAUSE BAD THINGS HAPPENED IN HISTORY.

>> Bonnie: SO YOU ARE SAYING -- THERE WAS 18 OF VIOLENCE IN WESTERN EUROPE AND, AS YOU MENTIONED, SEVERAL WOMEN WERE ATTACKED AND IT REALLY, LIKE THE ATTACK ON THE U.S. CAPITOL IN JANUARY, IT SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN ORGANIZED IN SOME WAY.

HOW DID THAT HAPPEN?

WOULD YOU THINK WENT WRONG WITH WESTERN CULTURE THAT IT WAS ALLOWED TO HAPPEN?

WAS THERE ANYTHING THE GOVERNMENT COULD HAVE DONE TO PREVENT IT?

>> Ayaan Hirsi Ali: YES.

I THINK THE FIRST THING IS TO SAY IT CANNOT IN ANY WAY BE COMPARED TO WHAT HAPPENED ON THE CAPITOL IN THE UNITED STATES ON JANUARY 6.

IT WAS NOT A CONTEST OF POWER, AND I THINK THE MEN MAY HAVE COME ACROSS -- THE MEN WHO CONTACT THE WOMEN MAY HAVE COME ACROSS IS ORGANIZE BUT I THINK THERE WAS NO ORGANIZATION BEHIND IT.

BUT WHAT HAPPENED WAS A LARGE NUMBER OF MEN FROM MUSLIM MAJORITY COUNTRIES ON NEW YEAR'S EVE 2015 DISH 2016 WENT OUT AND STARTED TO ENCIRCLE WOMEN WHO WERE CELEBRATING THAT EVENT AND ATTACKED THEM AND ROBBED THEM AND VIOLATE THEIR SEXUAL RIGHTS.

THEY TRIED TO RAPE THEM, THEY GROUPED THEM, AND THEY TRIED TO PUT THEIR FINGERS BETWEEN THE WOMEN'S LEGS AND ON THEIR BREASTS AND SO ON.

MANY PEOPLE REPORTED THAT.

NOW, THE RESPONSE FROM LEADERSHIP WAS, WELL, IT IS AN UNFORTUNATE INCIDENT.

IT SHOULD NOT OF HAPPENED.

660 WOMEN REPORTED TO THE POLICE WOULD HAVE HAD HAPPENED TO THEM.

IT LED TO LESS THAN 50 CONVICTIONS -- ACTUALLY, NOT EVEN CONVICTIONS.

I THINK ONLY 50 OF THEM WERE TAKEN SERIOUSLY.

I HAVE TO LOOK AT MY NOTES.

BUT THAT IS ONLY -- THAT EVENT IS AN ILLUSTRATION OF WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE APPROACH AND THE ATTITUDE THAT EUROPEAN LEADERS TAKE TO THIS ISSUE OF CLASHING VALUES BETWEEN SOME MUSLIMS, SOME MUSLIM MEN WHO WHEN THEY COME TO EUROPE VIOLATE THE LAWS, THE NORMS, AND THE CUSTOMS OF EUROPE AND THE VICTIMS OF THOSE VIOLATIONS, SUCH AS WOMEN.

AND IT IS NOT ENOUGH FOR THESE LEADERS TO SAY THAT THEIR ANCESTORS DID SOME BAD THINGS IN HISTORY AND THEREFORE IT'S AN EXCUSE FOR THEM TO DO NOTHING.

>> Bonnie: SO WHAT DO YOU WANT THEM TO DO?

AND BEARING IN MIND THAT I HAVE, OVER MANY YEARS, SINCE ACTUALLY THE MID '90s, I HAVE TRAVELED TO A LOT OF MIDDLE EASTERN COUNTRIES, NORTH AFRICAN COUNTRIES AND DONE STORIES ABOUT WOMEN AND ISLAM.

AND WHAT MOST OF THE WOMEN WILL SAY ABOUT HAVING TO COVER UP AND BEING SUBSERVIENT TO THEIR HUSBANDS IS THAT WHEN THEY HAVE TO WEAR THE GARMENTS, THEY SEE IT AS GIVING THEM POWER AND THEY SEE THEMSELVES AS, YOU KNOW, AS GETTING POWER AS OPPOSED TO BEING STRIPPED OF POWER.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THOSE WOMAN -- WOMEN?

AND I'VE ALWAYS BEEN, QUITE FRANKLY, VERY SURPRISED BY SOME OF THESE ARGUMENTS, GIVEN THEIR SITUATIONS IN THE WORLD.> Ayaan Hirsi Ali: IN THE MIDDLE EAST, IN COUNTRIES WHERE ISLAMIC NORMS AND VALUES AND LAWS ARE THE PREVAILING NORMS AND VALUES AND LAWS, IT IS TRUE THAT IF YOU ARE A WOMAN AND YOU DO NOT COVER YOURSELF, YOU WILL GET INTO TROUBLE, BIG, BAD TROUBLE.

SO WHEN THEY TELL YOU AS AN OUTSIDER WE HAVE TO COVER OURSELVES, BECAUSE IF I AM COVERED, I HAVE LESS CONSTRAINTS OF MOVEMENT ON ME.

THAT MAKES SENSE!

IT'S A PRACTICAL WAY OF ADAPTING TO THEIR OWN REALITY OF THE .

BUT WHEN YOU GO TO THE STREETS OF FRANCE AND GERMANY AND SWEETING AND YOU ARE TALKING TO EUROPEAN WOMEN WHO ARE USED TO DRESSING AS THEY PLEASE AND GOING WHEREVER THEY WANTED AND THE ASSUMPTION THAT THEY ARE SAFE IN THE PUBLIC SQUARE, THAT'S A DIFFERENT STORY.

NOW, THOSE WOMEN ARE BEING TOLD BY SOME OF THEIR LEADERS THAT, IN FACT, THEY DO HAVE TO ADAPT TO THE NEW REALITY, THAT YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU WEAR.

YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT WHERE YOU GO OUT AND WHERE YOU WALK.

YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT WHETHER YOU ARE GOING OUT ALONE AT NIGHT OR NOT.

YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT GOING -- HOW YOU ARE GOING TO BEHAVE AND WHAT KIND OF THREAT YOU ARE GOING TO FACE BEFORE YOU LEAVE YOUR FRONT DOOR.

THAT DEVELOPMENT IS NEW IN EUROPE.

I MEAN, WHEN I SAY NEW, I'M TALKING ABOUT MODERN EUROPE, NOT 19TH-CENTURY -- THAT EVEN THE 1950'S EUROPE, BUT RELATIVELY NEW IN THE 21ST CENTURY FOR THESE WOMEN.

AND THIS IS A DIRECT -- HAS A DIRECT CORRELATION WITH IMMIGRATION FROM MUSLIM MAJORITY COUNTRIES, AND THAT IS WHAT THESE LEADERS NEED TO ADDRESS.

>> Bonnie: SO WHAT DO YOU THINK?

HOW SHOULD THE LEADERS ADDRESS THIS?

HOW SHOULD IMMIGRATION BE CHANGED?

>> Ayaan Hirsi Ali: WELL, FIRST OF ALL, THEY HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THERE IS A PROBLEM, THAT THERE ARE A CLASH OF VALUES, THAT NOW WOMEN IN LARGE NUMBERS HAVE BECOME VICTIMS, NOT JUST IMMIGRANT WOMEN BUT ALSO EUROPEAN WOMEN.

SO THAT ACKNOWLEDGMENT WILL THEN LEAD TO THE NEXT STEP, WHICH IS AN HONEST ASSESSMENT OF THE PROBLEM AND HOW BIG IT IS.

AND ONCE THAT IS DONE, WHAT WILL FOLLOW OUR PROGRAMS THAT COMPEL THESE YOUNG MEN THAT ENGAGE IN THESE ACTS OF MISCONDUCT AND VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN TO BE ASSIMILATED INTO THE NORMS, THE PREVAILING NORMS OF THE COUNTRIES THAT THEY HAVE CHOSEN TO SETTLE IN.

THERE SHOULD BE CONSEQUENCES FOR THOSE WHO REFUSE TO DO THAT, AND THOSE CONSEQUENCES CANNOT BE JUST A SLAP ON THE WRIST, AS IS THE CASE IN MANY OF THESE COUNTRIES WERE EITHER THEY ARE ACQUITTED OR THEY GET TWO WEEKS -- JUST A FEW WEEKS OF PROBATION OR COMMUNITY WORK FOR -- THE PUNISHMENT HAS TO FIT THE CRIME.

SO THE MESSAGE THAT THE INSTITUTIONS IN THE LEADERSHIP OF EUROPE RIGHT NOW, THE MESSAGE THEY ARE CONVEYING TO THE IMMIGRANT MEN WHO ENGAGE IN MISCONDUCT IS THAT THEY CAN CARRY ON, THERE WILL BE NO CONSEQUENCES, AND THIS IS WHAT I'M TRYING TO BRING TO THE SURFACE AND START A CONVERSATION ABOUT IN THIS BOOK, PREY.

>> Bonnie: NOW, DO YOU SEE THE SAME WAY OF COURSE HERE IN THE U.S.?

I JUST HAD A HUGE CONVERSATION ABOUT IMMIGRATION AND A CHANGE OF ADMINISTRATION IS LARGELY DUE TO DIVISIONS WITHIN THE COUNTRY ABOUT HOW MUCH IMMIGRATION, WHAT KIND OF IMMIGRATION WE SHOULD BE HAPPENING IN THIS COUNTRY.

DO YOU SEE THE SAME THING AS YOU SAY IN THE TITLE OF YOUR BOOK, YOU KNOW, THE EROSION OF WOMEN'S RIGHTS IN THE U.S. THAT YOU SEE IN EUROPE?

>> Ayaan Hirsi Ali: WHAT I SEE IS THAT THE CONVERSATION ABOUT IMMIGRATION AND ON IMMIGRATION IN THE UNITED STATES IS RADICALLY DIFFERENT FROM THE CONVERSATIONS THAT THEY ARE HAVING IN EUROPE.

IN THE REASON WHY IS DIFFERENT IS, FIRST OF ALL, AMERICA HAS ALWAYS BEEN AN IMMIGRATION COUNTRY.

AND AMERICAN IMMIGRATION HAS ALWAYS BEEN SELECTIVE.

IN THE CONVERSATIONS, IF YOU LISTEN CLOSELY, BETWEEN THE CONSERVATIVE PARTY AND LIBERALS, BETWEEN THE REPUBLICANS AND THE DEMOCRATS IS NOT ABOUT WHETHER THERE SHOULD BE IMMIGRATION OR NOT, IT'S VERY MUCH ABOUT, WHAT KIND OF IMMIGRATION?

WHO DO WE LET IN AND WHO DO WE KEEP OUT AND HOW?

THAT IS WHAT THE AMERICANS ARE DEBATING AND DISAGREEING ON AND I THINK AT SOME POINT WE ARE GOING TO HAVE, HOPEFULLY, RESOLUTION.

IN -- >> Bonnie: WELL, BECAUSE OF WHAT YOU HAVE SEEN IN EUROPE, DO YOU SUGGEST IN THE BOOK THAT THERE SHOULD BE SOME KIND OF LIMIT OR -- A LIMIT PUT ON YOUNG ISLAMIC MEN COMING OUT OF POVERTY AND COUNTRIES WHERE THERE IS SOCIAL TURMOIL, OR SHOULD THERE BE A QUESTIONNAIRE THAT THEY HAVE TO ANSWER OR BOOTHS THAT THEY HAVE TO SWEAR TO ABOUT HOW THEY WILL TREAT WOMEN IN THIS COUNTRY?

>> Ayaan Hirsi Ali: IN MY VIEW, IN MY VIEW, BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN THROUGH THE AMERICAN IMMIGRATION PROCESS -- IN MY VIEW, AMERICA HAS GOT ALL THESE THINGS.

YOU ARE ASKED IF YOU HAVE COMMITTED PRIOR CRIMES, YOU ARE ASKED -- EVEN WHEN I WAS A PLAN FOR THE GREEN CARD, AND I'M NOT A MAN, AND OF AVON BEEN ASKED IF I'M HIV-POSITIVE.

I HAD TO TEST FOR IT, OR IF I HAD TBC, HAD TO TEST FOR IT.

SO EVEN BEFORE THE IMMIGRATION PROCESS AND THE KIND OF VETTING THAT ONE GOES THROUGH, STARTING FROM WHEN YOU ARE OUTSIDE OF THE UNITED STATES TO WHEN YOU ARE ALLOWED IN ON A VISA AND YOU PROCEED TO A GREEN CARD AND YOU PROCEED TO CITIZENSHIP, ALL OF THAT PROCESS IS ALREADY IN PLACE.

BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN THROUGH IT, I KNOW THAT IT IS OF A DIFFERENT QUALITY THAN WHAT WE ARE SEEING IN EUROPE.

IT IS VERY DIFFERENT.

AND NO MATTER WHETHER -- >> Bonnie: HOW SHOULD IT CHANGE?

I MEAN, HOW WOULD YOU -- WOULD YOU SCREEN FOR MEN WHO, IN YOUR VIEW, WOULD BE LIKELY TO TREAT WOMEN IN WAYS THAT ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE IN WESTERN CULTURE BUT ARE VERY ACCEPTABLE IN ISLAMIC CULTURE?

I'M JUST TRYING TO SEE WHERE YOU DRAW THE LINE SPEED DO SO IN AMERICA, THAT KIND OF SELECTION IS ALREADY IN PLACE.

YOU ALREADY GET QUESTIONS ABOUT WHETHER YOU HAVE COMMITTED CRIMES AND SEXUAL MISCONDUCT AGAINST WOMEN -- SO RAPE IS A CRIME AND YOU HAVE TO ANSWER TRUTHFULLY.

IF THEY FIND OUT -- IN AMERICA, IF THEY FIND OUT YOU ARE TELLING LIES, YOU WILL BE CONSEQUENCES.

AND THEN INSIDE AMERICA, ANYBODY, REGARDLESS OF THE RELIGION OR BACKGROUND, IT IF THEY DO COMMIT SUCH ACTS, ARE PUNISHED FOR A VERY, VERY LONG TIME.

THE PUNISHMENTS ARE INCREDIBLY SEVERE.

THIS BOOK IS VERY MUCH ABOUT EUROPE WHERE NONE OF THESE SAFEGUARDS ARE IN PLACE.

YES, PEOPLE ARE ASKED ABOUT, HAVE YOU COMMITTED A CRIME AND SO ON, BUT THEY KNOW FROM THE GROUND THAT THIS IS ALMOST NO CONSEQUENCE FOR THEM.

>> Bonnie: EUROPE, FOR EXAMPLE, HAS HAD MANY FEMALE PRIME MINISTER'S.

THERE IS ONE IN GERMANY NOW, OF COURSE, AND WHICH -- WHICH HAD A HUGE INFLUX A COUPLE YEARS AGO ANYWAY, MORE THAN A MILLION ISLAMIC MIGRANTS FROM NORTH AFRICA WHO -- WHOSE COUNTRIES WERE IN GREAT TURMOIL.

OF COURSE, WOMEN SEEM TO HAVE GREATER RIGHTS, ONE COULD ARGUE, IN SOME OF THESE COUNTRIES THAN AMERICAN WOMEN DO.

DO YOU THINK THEY ARE GOING TO FEEL A BACKLASH, A CHANGE IN -- OTHER THAN LIKE WHAT YOU JUST DESCRIBED ABOUT WOMEN'S RIGHTS BEING, YOU KNOW, TAKEN BACK BECAUSE THEY CANNOT GO FREELY WHEREVER THEY WANT TO GO AT NIGHT AND THEY USED TO BE ABLE TO, YOU SEE THIS CHANGING EUROPEAN CULTURE?

>> Ayaan Hirsi Ali: I WANT TO SAY TO YOU PARADOXICALLY IT IS, IN FACT, NOW WITH SO MANY WOMEN HEADS OF STATE, CHANCELLOR ANGELA MERKEL, AND WHEN SOME OF THESE 2015 INCIDENTS WERE HAPPENING, PRE-THEY WAS PER MINISTER OF THE UNITED KINGDOM.

AND SO, THE FACT THAT THINGS HAVE EVOLVED IN EUROPE AND IN WESTERN SOCIETY, THAT IT IS OKAY AND PRETTY NORMAL NOW TO HAVE WOMEN IN LEADERSHIP PLACES HASN'T -- AND I REPEAT THIS -- IS A PARADOX AND IT'S AN IRONY, THAT IN FACT THE DETERIORATION OF THE SAFETY AND THE RIGHTS OF WOMEN AND WORKING-CLASS WOMEN THE LOW NEIGHBORHOODS HAS NEVER BEEN WORSE FOR SOME OF THESE PEOPLE.

>> Bonnie: NOTHING YOU'VE SAID HERE TODAY STRIKES ME IS RADICALLY CONSERVATIVE.

YOU ARE VERY COMPASSIONATE.

YOU CARE ABOUT THE RIGHTS OF IMPOVERISHED WOMEN, ISLAMIC WOMEN, WOMEN OF COLOR.

SO WHY DOES THE LEFT, IF I MAY USE THAT WORD, DISLIKE YOU SO MUCH?

WHY DO FEMINISTS THINK THAT YOU ARE, YOU KNOW, EXTREMELY FAR RIGHT AND NOT GOOD FOR WOMEN?

>> Ayaan Hirsi Ali: WELL, BECAUSE I THINK MY WORK IS CAUGHT UP.

BECAUSE IT'S MY WORK THEY DISLIKE.

BUT IT'S CAUGHT UP IN THE IDEOLOGY OF THE FAR LEFT.

IT IS THE GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO DO NOT CALL THEMSELVES WOKE.

AND THAT GROUP OF PEOPLE, THE WOKE, THEY DO NOT DISLIKE ME BECAUSE OF MY PERSON, BUT THEY DISLIKE ME BECAUSE OF MY WORK GOES AGAINST THEIR ORTHODOXY -- >> Bonnie: WHERE AND HOW DOES THIS HAPPEN?

>> Ayaan Hirsi Ali: WHERE AND HOW DOES THIS HAPPEN?

THE IDEOLOGY OF WOKE, I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH OF IT YOU ARE FAMILIAR WITH, BUT THEY DO SEE OUR SOCIETY, THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, ONLY THROUGH THE PRISM OF POWER, THOSE WHO OPPRESS AND THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED.

THEY SEE BLACK PEOPLE, PEOPLE OF COLOR, IMMIGRANTS, AS THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED AND AS VICTIMS AND THEY SEE WHITE PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY THE WHITE MALE, HETEROSEXUAL AS THE OPPRESSOR.

THAT'S THE IDEOLOGY AND THAT'S THEIR WORLDVIEW.

AND ANYONE WHO GOES AGAINST THAT, TO THEM, IS DEMONIZED.

NOW, THAT DOES NOT APPLY FOR THE REST OF THE LEFT.

I AM VERY GOOD FRIENDS WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE CENTERLEFT.

I CALL THEM SAYING LEFT IN VERY GOOD FRIENDS WITH WHO ARE CONSERVATIVES WHO ARE CENTER-RIGHT.

I DON'T THINK THAT CONSERVATIVES ARE NOT COMPASSIONATE.

I THINK MANY OF THEM ARE, IN FACT, VERY, VERY COMPASSIONATE.

BUT IF YOU LOOK AT THE WORLD AND OUR SOCIETY THROUGH THIS LENS, THIS ORTHODOXY OF CRITICAL THEORETICAL, CRITICAL RACE THEORY, WOKE IDEOLOGY, CANCEL CULTURE, I THINK YOU ARE GOING TO SEE EVERYTHING WARPED.

SO I DON'T CARE WHAT THOSE PEOPLE THINK ABOUT ME.

I THINK WE ARE ALL IN THE SAME BOAT BECAUSE, WHETHER IT IS YOU OR ME, WHETHER YOU GO GRANTS THEIR WORLDVIEW, THEY WILL TRY TO CANCEL YOU AND TRY TO COME AFTER YOU AND TRY TO SMEAR YOU.

THAT'S WHAT THEY'VE DONE.

BUT I MEAN, TO ME, THEY ARE NOT IRRELEVANT.

THEIR DESTRUCTION.

BECAUSE OF PROBLEMS THAT WERE ADDRESSING, THESE ENCOUNTERS BETWEEN PEOPLE WHO ARE COMING FROM PLACES THAT ARE NOT SAFE, THAT ARE IN TURMOIL AND ARE LOOKING TO BETTER AND IMPROVE, I'M ABSOLUTELY A PROPONENT OF THAT.

BUT IT CANNOT BE, AGAIN, AT THE PRICE AND AT THE COST OF THE SAFETY AND THE LIVES OF OTHERS, ESPECIALLY PEOPLE IN THE RECEIVING OR HOST SOCIETIES, BECAUSE WE NEED THEM TO CONTINUE TO HOST.

WE NEED THEM TO CONTINUE TO PERCEIVE PEOPLE WHO ARE IN TURMOIL.

IN FOR YOU TO MAKE THAT CASE AND FOR ME TO MAKE THAT CASE, THEN WE HAVE TO ADDRESS AGAIN THOSE NEGATIVE UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES BEFORE EVERYTHING BLOWS OUT OF CONTROL.

>> Bonnie: THANK YOU SO MUCH, AYAAN HIRSI ALI.

WHO WILL READ AUTHOR WITH A LOYAL FOLLOWING.

AND WE REALLY APPRECIATE TALKING TO YOU ABOUT YOUR MOVE RECENT RECENT BOOK, PREY: IMMIGRATION, ISLAM, AND THE EROSION OF WOMEN'S RIGHTS.

BEST OF LUCK TO YOU.

THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION.

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